The only way? |
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This is a chat I had with a Christian guy on the Internet about Jesus being the only way to God.
| Me: | i still can not understand why one would think that jesus is the only way |
| Ch: | why not? |
| Me: | what about those who did not hear about him? |
| Ch: | well
should they go to heaven? |
| Me: | if they are devoted to god, then why not? |
| Ch: | that's not what gets someone to heaven |
| Me: | well, if they get the mercy of god then why would they not go to heaven? |
| Ch: | the only way man can have a relationship with God is if they come perfect, without sin.
if we are imperfect and God is perfect mercy can't clean our imperfections |
| Me: | gods mercy can do that |
| Ch: | look at it this way
a man rapes and murders your parents he's in the court room and the judge says " i'll let you go, becasue i'm good and merciful. " is he a good judge? of course not. he's corrupt! a good judge would punish crime where it's found. but Gods standard of what "good" is, is way above mans |
| Me: | how does that relate to the issue? |
| Ch: | God doesn't stop at murderers and lets the theives in
he doesn't stop at thieft and let the liars in.. |
| Me: | you can not get free from sin without the mercy of god |
| Ch: | the point is
all have sinned, and ALL deserve death. God has written his law on our hearts all man knows the difference between right and wrong |
| Me: | so what is your logical conclusion? |
| Ch: | on judgment day, we are without excuse
well God, seeing all man has sinned and are imperfect knew the only way to save us is if perfection took the payment and punishment for us. if we accept Christ we are allowing his payment to be ours. either we can die guilty of our sins, or we can die innocent of our sins, paid in full by Christ death. |
| Me: | sure, i am not saying that that is wrong, what i am saying is that why would it be only one person like jesus? |
| Ch: | how else? |
| Me: | there are certainly many perfect souls who loves god wholeheartedly |
| Ch: | perfect souls?
can you name one? |
| Me: | well, if i did, what would you say? "no he is not perfect" |
| Ch: | well i'd ask you why he was perfect |
| Me: | i am not saying that i can reach god independenly or even expect the mercy of god, what i am saying is that there is no reason to believe that jesus is the only perfect soul that can help us in this |
| Ch: | well, do you agree all men have sinned? |
| Me: | tell me what you want to say instead
all those who are not perfect have sinned |
| Ch: | put something or someone before God, made their own gods physically or in their minds, said the lords name in vain, haven't kept the sabbath, haven't honored their parents, hated someone, looked with lust, stolen something, told a lie, coverted
no one in the world has kept all those how can they be perfect if they have sinned? |
| Me: | there are souls who have not sinned |
| Ch: | sin is transgression of the law
you're a law breaker a criminal how then can anyone who is a criminal be found innocent? |
| Me: | i am not talking about me and you |
| Ch: | yeh i know |
| Me: | i am saying that there are those who have no sin |
| Ch: | who? |
| Me: | if i say a name you will just say "no he/she is not without sin"
right? |
| Ch: | well i know ALL have sinned, because that's what God himself said.
but tell me anyways. |
| Me: | so you are just saying "everyone except jesus have sin". But that is what we are debating, you can not use that as an argument.
that is the position that i am challenging |
| Ch: | Jesus said, "there is noone good but God." |
| Me: | so you are going to say that jesus is god, right? |
| Ch: | he said, "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."
the thing that makes Christianity different to every other religion in the world is that by no deeds or works can save you. "For it is by God's grace that you have been saved, through faith. It is not the result of your own efforts, but God's GIFT, so that no one can boast about it." (Ephesians 2: 8-9) no one can earn their way into Heaven because we are imperfect beings born into a sinful world |
| Me: | that is what i said in the beginning, which you denied |
| Ch: | sorry? |
| Me: | i stressed the point of gods mercy
you compared mercy to a bad judge |
| Ch: | no,
the mercy is only through Jesus punishment HAD to be served andthat was poured out on Jesus IF you die with being forgiven through Jesus |
| Me: | i can accept that we need to get mercy through a soul without sin, what i am challening is the idea that jesus is the only soul of that kind |
| Ch: | on the day of judgment God will find you guilty of being a liar, thief, murderer, adulterer etc.
why do you doubt that? |
| Me: | i am asking you why would you think that jesus is the only soul of that kind
you are the one who claims it |
| Ch: | because tehre is only one God
and one way God himself said that if there were other ways |
| Me: | wait |
| Ch: | "religions" would not conflict
i am not the one who claims it, God himself is. |
| Me: | can you wait |
| Ch: | yep
sorry |
| Me: | ok
there is only one god, that is clear, anyone who knows what the word god means, and who at all believes there is a god, must accept that, nothing else makes sense next point... only one way, yes the way of receiving the mercy of god through a pure soul i am not challening these ideas |
| Ch: | yep |
| Me: | what i am challening is the idea that jesus is the only soul of that kind |
| Ch: | because why?
why is it not possible? |
| Me: | well, i want to know why you claim that? |
| Ch: | Joh 14:6 Jesus said to him, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; NO ONE comes to the Father but by Me. |
| Me: | ok, good. Now we can work on something. |
| Ch: | Jesus also commanded us to spread the message of the gospel to EVERY nation |
| Me: | So, it is not logic that makes you believe this, but a text in the bible. Right? |
| Ch: | no my logic also agrees.
if there is 1 God there is 1 Way 1 road to Heaven 1 sacrifice how else can one attain salvation if not through the "perfect sacrifice"? do yo uknow another way? |
| Me: | how do you know, logically (since you seem to want to take this on logic now), that there is no other pure soul who can save other souls through a perfect sacrifice? |
| Ch: | you tell me how it's possible for another soul to save us.
if God is the only good being and there is no one else who is good then who is able? |
| Me: | i ask you why you claim that only jesus could be of that kind? |
| Ch: | because i think the bible makes sense. |
| Me: | you say that "it says so in the bible" and "it makes sense (it is logical)". So far you have not shown me why it is logical. I know your claim is in the bible, but it is the claim I challenge. |
| Ch: | that is what is called faith
it's not faith in the existence of God, that is common sense. it's faith that on the day of judgment Christ death will be able to pay for your sins. |
| Me: | i think faith is great, but it must not be blind, there has to be some reason to have faith, it could be that "it makes sense" or that it was something that a person who you really trust said it, like a priest or so. |
| Ch: | it's not at all blind |
| Me: | but, as we both know, total faith can only be put in god and in a pure soul |
| Ch: | i trust the bible
either Jesus was a liar or he was teh son of God |
| Me: | or the bible is misrepresenting him or misinterpreting him on that point |
| Ch: | the choice is yours to choose which you'll believe.
so the muslims say. |
| Ch: | but ofcourse they would, they're from ishmael. |
| Me: | i would say most people who are religious and not christians would tend to think that that idea that jesus is the only way is a misconception |
| Ch: | do you know why they think that?
1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is foolishness to those being lost, but to us being saved, it is the power of God. |
| Me: | i will answer that question |
| Ch: | it's cool, i just did. |
| Me: | no you gave an interpretation of the sacrifice in the way that you think that this is the only sacrifice of pure soul |
| Ch: | yes |
| Me: | that is not the only interpretation that makes sense, in fact i think most people who are religious (and not christians) would see a different interpretation of that as more sensible |
| Ch: | mm?
are you muslim? |
| Me: | no |
| Ch: | they're into making their own interpretations of the bible. |
| Me: | well, you have your own interpretation
(the christians) |
| Ch: | can you interpret "i am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the father but by me." any differently? |
| Me: | well, i can see three things here... |
| Ch: | go on
# John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life." |
| Me: | i am writing |
| Ch: | ONLY
# 1 John 2:2, "and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world." WHOLE world 1 John 4:14, "And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world." # John 4:42, "and they were saying to the woman, “It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves and know that this One is indeed the Savior of the world.” |
| Me: | let me answer that question ok? |
| Ch: | yep |
| Me: |
|
| Ch: | and which of those two do think is more likely? |
| Me: | 2 or 3 |
| Ch: | and why not 1? |
| Me: | because it implies that other religions are doing wrong, there is no explanation to why jesus would be the only such possible soul, and many other such kind of arguments |
| Ch: | Christianity is NOT a religion? |
| Me: | what? |
| Ch: | Christianity is not a religion |
| Me: | are you claiming that or? |
| Ch: | it shouldn't even be put in the same category as "religions"
i'll show you... i'll cut & paste Christianity is unique in the fact that it is the ONLY faith which is not a religion- as a 'religion'- by definition means "to be bound" by rules and regulations and rituals in order that one MAY attain salvation. (whatever their definition of salvation may be) This is in stark contrast to the teachings of THE most anti-religious person there ever lived- Jesus the Christ. Jesus taught that the truth would SET YOU FREE and that it would be faith ALONE in His sacrificial death and resurrection for our sins which would save us and NOT our good deeds. "For it is by God's grace that you have been saved, through faith. It is not the result of your own efforts, but God's GIFT, so that no one can boast about it." (Ephesians 2: 8-9) |
| Me: | dont get too wordy please |
| Ch: | This means that (although good in themselves and recommended) it is NOT by attending 'church', being baptised** or even believing in God! (Satan is not an atheist himself!)
To put it plainly: We are saved by faith and DEMONSTRATED by good works- but it isn't the works themselves that actually save us. |
| Me: | i agree that there are "religions" in the sense of having a set of rules that should be followed and where the idea of gods mercy through a pure soul is lacking, and i also agree that it makes sense to say that a religion which is not like that but which actually understands the core of the whole thing could be said to not be a "religion", meaning it is the essence of it instead.
but that is not something unique to christianity |
| Ch: | you believe there is one God? |
| Me: | yes |
| Ch: | do you believe Jesus was God? |
| Me: | no, i believe he is a pure soul that god sent to save us
and that is what jesus said too, at least according to the bible |
| Ch: | Jesus being pure would mean he was sinless, correct? |
| Me: | yes |
| Ch: | is lying a sin? |
| Me: | tell me what you want to say instead, please |
| Ch: | can you asnwer my questiosn so i know what you believe? please
you'd agree lying is a sin right? that's breaking the 9th commandment.. |
| Me: | wait
no, you know very well, by now, that i think lying is a sin, so i am not going to play that game with you. If you want to present a logical argument, then just do it, and i will listen |
| Ch: | right
so in all Jesus said, he never told a lie? |
| Me: | just tell me your point, please |
| Ch: | Jesus clearly says "NO ONE comes to the father but by me." and number of statements like that. |
| Me: | i already answered that point, that is when i listed the 3 possible ways to understand that |
| Ch: | you have no proof to back up those claims
they aresimply your opinion |
| Me: | we are going in circles, and it is late here, i need to go to bed, we can continue this antoher time |
| Ch: | until there is proof we can't change scripture
i can do that wiht anything! |
| Me: | i need to go, ok? |
| Ch: | "well, i don't think he meant THAT! i think it was more like this..."
yep sure talk later. |
| Me: | yes, thanks for the chat, bye |
| Ch: | yeh thanks! |
| Me: | :) |
| Ch: | sleep well |
| Me: | thanks |